So what has all of this to do with the art of conversation? First, we can learn to recognize which layer we’re in. Don’t be afraid of so-called “small talk.” Small talk is merely talk that’s in the outside layer of interests. It sounds superficial, but it functions as a safe area for conversation that won’t lead to disagreements or conflict.

Second, if we are good at listening, and earn enough trust while talking about interests, bit by bit, those with whom we are talking will move the conversation into the layer of values. They might even move the conversation into the layer of worldviews. A friend of mine who was training as a hospital chaplain told me that a person will actually drop hints that they’re ready to move the conversation onto the next layer. Our job is to listen intently, pick up on the cues, and simply ask questions like, “Tell me about that,” or “How did that make you feel?” That will give them permission to take us into the next layer.

Third, conversely, we ourselves may take the initiative to move the conversation into the next layer. We do this simply by asking questions. For example, if we ask them what they did on the weekend, and they say they played basketball, we are in the interests layer of the conversation. But if we then ask, “Why do you play basketball on the weekends?” To answer this they will have to move into the values layer. For example, they might say, “It keeps me healthy.” And then if we ask, “Why do we value health so much?” To answer this they will have to move into the worldviews layer. For example, they might say, “We only live once, so I want to live for as long as possible.”

Or, fourth, we can simply move straight to worldviews. In the same way that questions such as “What did you do on the weekend?” immediately lead to the interests layer of conversations, there are other questions that will immediately lead to the worldviews layer of conversations. For example, try these questions: “Do you have a faith?”, “What religion did your parents raise you with?”,⁴ or “Do you pray?”⁵ I have found that these questions are safe questions to ask because, on the surface, they are still descriptive. We’re merely asking a factual question. But, on the other hand, they invite the person to share their worldview—in particularly their views on the spiritual and the sacred—with us. I have found that, when I do this, sometimes the person will show that they simply don’t want to talk about this. And that’s OK. We offered them a chance to talk about things that matter to them and they didn’t want to open up to us yet. But on many other occasions, I’ve found that people welcome an opportunity to talk about things that are deepest and most valuable to them.